peter, thanks for your comments. I had been critical of comments of Vikram Sampat on the subject of thumri (thus the page discrepancies and possibly the misinterpretations). I did not know that some things had come from your book which I had read years ago. Whatever I know about the subject is not really from your book. I am glad that you still take an interest in the subject. Your book may be 30 years old but in English it is an unsurpassed classic. I certainly agree that Shukla’s book and others (ramashreya Jha’s volumes, the excellent book on Sadarang (i forget the author’s name) come to mind) should be translated into English. Shukla’s book and I believe your book are very difficult to find and should be in print. I have not yet been able to procure even a photocopy of Shukla’s book! I do not remember about your book and do not have it here with me, but I have noticed in Lalita DuPerron’s excellent book on thumri there is no mention of the most popular thumri of all time- the exquisite “babul more” of k.l. saigal nor mention of the thumri masterpieces of Abdul Karim Khan. As i mentioned somewhere, maybe in another thread, I am intrigued by the absence of bindaddin thumris in the 3 volume “thumri sangraha” of rahat ali. I would be interested if you have any idea on this. I believe he (bindaddin) was contemporary with sanad piya, chand piya, etc. and rahat ali’s father had been in the retinue of wajid ali shah in metiabruz if i am not mistaken. Thanks again for your interest. I also loved your book “cassette culture”. What do you do now? regards, james

Komolika, You wrote, “…we are talking about the 18th-19th centuries, not what Shubha Mudgal sings today or records which u have heard. Many of these are out of vogue and are lost and talas and ragas employed too is different from what is prevalent today. So do not link up historical facts to what you see and hear of music in the present or even within the last 50 years.”
I have a previous post on this blog on the “Thumri Sangraha”. The hundreds of thumris in the 3 volumes were documented by Rahat Ali whose father was a singer I believe in the court of Wajid Ali Shah. I think it represents an authentic version of what the thumris were like. All of the major composers of that era except Bindaddin are represented- ragas, notations, taals and thekas of the era which were somewhat different. Most of these thumris are not in current thumri repertoire and some that are are sung diffirently. They are mostly in kafi, khamaj, jungla, bhairavi, piloo etc., mostly in teental, and in Braj. Lila Karvale’s collection of thumris could hardly be described as unauthentic, nor Rajabhaiya Poochwale’s smaller collection. There is also the huge wealth of recorded music from Gauhar, Zorabai Agrawali, Malka Jaan and others.

You just do not seem to accept a viewpoint different from yours. Criticism is important and one hopes results in better subsequent attempts. I do not know where your anger comes from. You called me “a public fool that lacks knowledge” (and despite what you later said, that is how it reads) without offering any kind of apology. You yourself were disparaging of Saba Dewan’s film and Kumar Prasad Mukherjee’s book.

~KM

Komolika,
You wrote, “That was more of a general statement and no personal affront on you!” That is not how your original statement reads.

You wrote
“I tended to agree with the hypotheses of Mr Sampath’s book largely because the Peter Manuel is something that i have closely followed (unlike others) during the past many years of my student years in classical music, which you dispute.”

I do not understand what you mean here.

You had mentioned that the reviewers had “sent (Saba Dewan’s film) to the washers”. I would be interested to read the reviews if you could direct me to them. I haven’t seen any myself.

Mr. Adnan, Why would you think that? Because i didn’t like the book? Jealous? you’ve got to be joking. It was you who personalized the discussion and called me “despicable” for daring to criticize the book. What does that have to do with Mr. Sampat? You seem to be unable to accept criticism of his book. Before I bought the book I saw him interviewed on tv. His enthusiasm and engaging personality increased my excitement to buy the book. I really cannot imagine why you think there is something personal in my criticism! It was a disappointment because as you can see from my blog, I am interested in the subject, and my expectations were very high. In my original post I had said that my criticism is more of the publisher than the author. How could something like the contradiction I mentioned between what is written on page 103 and page 110 get past an editor?

I apologize to you and to the author for any offence I have caused.

KM. Why would you consider Peter Manuel’s book as some sort of “bible”? I certainly do not, nor ever did. I do think it is a very good book, and that is all! If you agree with those specific things that he wrote I don’t know what to say! Do you think that bandish thumris are extinct, that they are in khadi boli and Urdu, are in “weighty” ragas like malhar, darbari and malkauns, and that Benares bol banao thumris are usually sung in dadra and keherwa???? The recorded documentation, some which I mentioned, and the “Thumri Sangraha” and other thumri collections does not support this. What I have learned about thumri has not been from Peter Manuel’s book. These were just some random errors I picked out. There were more.

It seems that you have a personal grudge against Vikram and are jealous of his success in writing a largely good book. Therefore, I see no benefit in continuing this dialog. When things get personal, one tends to lose objectivity and clearly that seems to be the case with you here. I apologize for having taken up so much of your time.

Ally.

Your English also showed lack of knowledge.

I have reached out to Saba.